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ITC Bridge > Ask a Question, Give an Answer > The Technical Tower - A panel of forum members > Raudive Diode , what is the idea ? |
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ITC Bridge > Ask a Question, Give an Answer > The Technical Tower - A panel of forum members > Raudive Diode , what is the idea ? |
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| Moderated by: sparks, mikesndbs, Keith Clark, joecioppi, Jeff, fratka, EVPDave, Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz, Dmaumau, Bruce, ArizonaEvp, takne_007 | Page: 1 2   |
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| Raudive Diode , what is the idea ? | Rating: 
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| Posted: Nov 2nd, 2011 01:25 PM |
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1st Post |
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a19971828 Member
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+Hello to all , i was experimented whith raudive`s diode , i make the circuit , and , i take the audio signal raudive diode`s output , into the audio amplify , and , i heard a station radio , (This radio is in 1500khz am ) , the coil self-resonance frecuency is 310khz ,so , i think this radio signal is heared , not by the diode`s selection , or specific frecuency sintonization , else , for the intensity of this radio signal in experimenting`s place . It means , the diode is not a good filter to a specific frecuency , the radio signal is sintonizated by the probe input , not by other part of the circuit , because i tried whith insulated circuit too (faraday cage ) . So , whith this results , i think , Which was the raudive`s original idea ? , there are two posibilities , one posibility , is , receive a empty station outside comercial radio`s band (raudive`s diode receive 300-330 khz in theory) like a common radio between into the 2 stations, or 2nd idea was , make a very sensibility receiver that can receive any radio wave whith enough intensity and near to receiver . (if any wave is strong and near to receiver , it will be hear into receiver ) This is very important , because , the original idea could be used to make a better instrument acording to the idea . Any one know the original idea ?
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| Posted: Nov 2nd, 2011 04:07 PM |
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2nd Post |
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joecioppi Moderator 
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Hi a....., The original Raudive diode idea was to collect atmospheric radio frequency static (ambient noise) on an antenna and detect the amplitude noise (AM) with a germanium diode. That detected noise is amplified by a recorder to audible levels to be heard on earphones or loud speaker. Raudive was reported to have recorded his mother's voice while out in the countryside recording bird sounds. He didn't have strong radio stations nearby to overwhelm ambient radio noise. A microphone is not likely to pick up radio stations while recording bird songs.The mothers voice may have been among the background audible sounds of the countryside. The Raudive diode circuit is a wideband radio detector that doesn't have the selectivity to avoid commercial broadcast stations. It isn't the ideal way to capture pure random atmospheric noise. In populated areas, radio noise signals will contain broadcast radio signals that pollute the radio noise signals. joe
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| Posted: Nov 6th, 2011 05:43 PM |
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3rd Post |
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a19971828 Member
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Hi joe , very thanks for your answer , but , is not a precise answer . You say , noise ambient signal , what is it ? , the raudive diode , is , the same , like a radio galena circuit . The galena radio´s circuit is the same , but , added a capacitor to select the stations . If we consider , raudive´s diode dont have this capacitor , it means , the radio is selected in only one frecuency , this frecuency , is the self-resonance coil frecuency. It would be know by a dip meter , or making a calculation of the inductance , and the parasitic capacitance of coil . But , in the most areas , there are strong radio frecuencies , so , the diode will receive this stations , because , is a radio , primitive radio . The weak select capacity of this instrument , allow any station who is near , or strong , could be captured and listen in record or speaker . So , How can i make to receive only the "noise ambient signal" whithout stations ? . Many could think , whith a faraday cage , but , the problem is , the station is captured by the anthena , not by the circuit . Another question , how do you know the original idea of raudive´s diode ? , This idea is written in "breakthrough" book ? . In this video , you can see a radio galena , and circuit , is the same like raudive´s diode , only differente by the selection capacitor . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsqxrxVR6pk&feature=related
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 12:42 AM |
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mikesndbs Moderator 
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Hi, sorry for my absence of late. I have been working quite extensively with the diode circuits. There should be no coil and no capacitors in the conventional way! Please see this thread: http://www.itcbridge.com/forum/view_topic.php?id=1402&forum_id=5&page=1 Resistors may be needed, the circuit needs to be screed and one option is the tin as shown. The antenna needs to be short as shown. If I touch the antenna then yes some radio stations can be heard. Do your tests during mid day when HF and MW propagation is flat. However, you must try not to think about this device in radio terms! I am not at all convinced that any EVP is radio based, what the detector does, is to provide a carrier for the EVP. Hope this helps Mike
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 11:42 AM |
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a19971828 Member
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Hi mike , very thanks for your answer , i saw your circuit , this circuit is another raudive´s diode version , is one of three versions , I am attaching the three versions . But , my question , is by another way , perhaps , the other versions are a little different , but i was thinking in conventional circuit , whith a 0.5mh coil , this circuit is the same like a radio galena whithout selecting capacitor . I experimented whith this , and , i saw this circuit receive any station in any frecuencie if it is near and strong , so , only i can hear is radio stations , i dont know , how people who say that experimented whith this diode , hear other thing . Like i saw this , i thought raudive had two possible ideas , One idea , have a radio circuit sintonized in one specific frecuencie , sintonized by the self-resonance frecuency of coil , (0.5mh) , i make calculations, and this frecuency is into 300khz-350khz . So , perhaps , he wanted this frecuency , so , the result will be hear white noise , like a normal radio not sintonized , only he make this circuit , because , there are no comercial radios whith this frecuency . The other posibility , i thought , raudive had the idea to make a receiver whith capacity of be a receiver of any frecuency radio wave , if it wave is near and strong , so , the solution in this case , is only use a faraday cage , but , the anthena must be into the faraday cage too , to avoid the radio stations . In this second case , if the diode capture voices , is caused by some wave into the faraday cage , so is imposible a radio station . Aditional to these ideas , one of you have the "breaktrough" raudive´s book ? if anyone can send me this book , i will be very grateful . The three circuits are from this book . Attached Image (viewed 2968 times):
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 01:51 PM |
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6th Post |
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sparks Member 
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From my experience, the raudive diode is deliberately non-resonant to avoid pickup of any specific radio station voice content, therefore allowing it to be more of a broadband noise source from which voices can be formed from. As such it is essentially a noise source generator that provides raw energy for the voice formation process. The antenna is meant to be kept very short, and adjusted in length so noise just becomes audible, but no longer, so that radio station voices are not being received. If resonance was desired in the design, the original broadband functionality could be synthesized by choosing it to be self resonant in an unused part of the radio spectrum, say below the longwave band for instance, where atmospheric noise is quite high and no radio traffic is present of any intensity. regards, JEFF
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 02:34 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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Hi spark , you say , raudive diode was thought to be a broadband noise source, but , i see , it´s not a source , but is a receiver . It dont produce noise , it receive . I used it whith a short antenna , (3 inch recomended of copper wire ) and i heard a radio station , I used a coil whith ferrite core . I was asking for the original idea , because , i need to do something to have the correct audio , or ideal audio must be hear . But i only hear a radio station , like a normal radio . The second idea said for sparks , is the idea i tought is posible , so , i thought put a tune capacitor , and try to tune in 300 -350 khz , theory frecuency tuned whith 0.5mh coil . But if is correct the second idea , the tune frecuency will be only one . What can i do to improve my raudive diode to have the ideal audio ?
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 02:52 PM |
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8th Post |
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sparks Member
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Use of the ferrite rod may not be a good idea due to its high Q and sensitivity. Id suggest an RF choke of equivalent or higher inductance value, so the Q and radio pickup ability is much lower. Also put a resistor across the choke to lower the Q further. Try 10K to start and then lower values to get the Q down. The idea is to receive atmospheric noise without receiving radio stations, so if you want to make it resonant, it needs to be in a band that is not used for radio broadcasting. A spot frequency in an unused band, say longwave would be the ideal. JEFF
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 03:11 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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HI sparks , i send you a pm , i need talk about .
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 03:33 PM |
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mikesndbs Moderator
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I would encourage you to move away from the idea of radio! it matters not which frequency it is tuned to, all that matters is that it does produce noise, it may be the germanium itself that is the key.
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 03:38 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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Hi mike , can we chat about it ? , i am in [email protected] , or in this web , area´s chat ... http://www.weblcv.com/c , , The raudive´s diode not produce noise , i dont understand you say it produce , it not produce anything , it only is a receiver , not a producer .
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 03:46 PM |
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12th Post |
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mikesndbs Moderator
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When you add a amplifier to the output of the Raudive circuit that amplifier will then hear, amplify the noise that the circuit is receiving. It does receive because it is sensitive to radio waves. It is these radio waves that go on to produce the noise required for EVP type communications.
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| Posted: Nov 7th, 2011 03:52 PM |
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sparks Member
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I agree with perhaps trying alternate methods of noise generation. Here attached is an interesting article on noise generation for evp using coal dust. Its been translated from German so the grammar and spelling isnt too good. Some parallels here to the use of Germanium as a noise generator / radio detector. Also parallels the concept of a zener diode as a noise generator. JEFF Attachment: coal dust method and electrical linked up diode.pdf (Downloaded 1402 times)
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| Posted: Nov 8th, 2011 11:35 AM |
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a19971828 Member
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Spark , i see , you are a person who know very much about this , i send my greetings , i have a specific question , when you recomend , i use a choke coil , what is the specific detail , the wire , the core ? , What is the diferent between the cilindrical ferrite bar coil and a choke coil to get a lower q , In pic , i am indicated the coil , is similar like i am using , Attached Image (viewed 1999 times):
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| Posted: Nov 8th, 2011 01:12 PM |
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15th Post |
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sparks Member
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The chokes I was referring to are standard RF Chokes, and not a ferrite bar antenna coil. I think the type you are using in the photo is the correct type. For the Raudive design, If you want to use a low frequency that is free of radio traffic, then Id use a 4.7mH choke like this one... http://www.circuitspecialists.com/70f473ai.html It might have some degree of self resonance, but it will be at a frequency about 260kHz, so it shouldnt be sensitive to medium wave radio stations. The above idea is for an un-tuned diode receiver. The problem with this idea is to avoid reception of radio stations, which is going to be difficult with this simple design, but may be possible with some careful experimentation. Another better option is to use a higher Q coil and make it tuned to a frequency like 260kHz that doesnt have any nearby radio stations. For this Id use 2 medium wave ferrite bar coil antennas in series to ensure resonance is below the medium wave band. A tuning capacitor could be added, but may not be needed. The high Q and self resonance should ensure it doesnt pick up medium wave stations. It wont need an external wire antenna of course. http://www.maplin.co.uk/ferrite-rod-aerial-859 Good luck with this. Another option for a raudive diode concept (as far as the output is concerned), is to just use a portable radio tuned to an unused portion of the AM or LW band. The noise structure there will the same as what youre trying to achieve with the diode, and you wont have the problems of trying to design out radio station voice content. As I said in my previous post, it may be a lot easier to use a non radio type of noise source. JEFF
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| Posted: Nov 8th, 2011 10:20 PM |
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16th Post |
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a19971828 Member
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I dont understand sparks , first you said the ferrite bar coil is not recomended , but , then , you say the ferrite bar coil used in the pic is correct . My question is still whithout answer , Which is the different between a standard rf choke and a ferrite bar coil ? , which is the different , the wire? , the core ? , why a rf choke coil like a 0.5mh rf choke coil is not the same like a 0.5mh bar ferrite coil , which is the different in the construction , or physical details .
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 11:03 AM |
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17th Post |
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a19971828 Member
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Hi , for example .... If i get a coil , What says to me this is a choke coil ? , What detail in the construction of it show me , ok yes , this is a choke coil , or , no , this is not a choke coil , What is the principal point
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 12:25 PM |
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18th Post |
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sparks Member
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If you type "4.7Mh rf choke" into google images and see what they look like. They are small and are designed for minimum self capacitance and minimum electromagnetic pickup. Type "ferrite antenna" into google images and see the difference. These are designed for maximum RF pickup and directivity. If you want a broadband device, use an rf choke, or just a resistor as the load element, as has been mentioned. If you want to tune to a specific frequency, use a ferrite rod antenna. I initially suggested an rf choke as this was akin to the original raudive design. This however has the drawback that it is inherently broadband and it is difficult to avoid radio station pickup. Because of this, I then suggested a ferrite rod antenna, as this can be tuned to a specific frequency, and as I mentioned, 2 rods in series should get you below the medium wave band where atmospheric noise pickup is greater than any stray signal, and exact tuning shouldnt be important. As others have mentioned, there are better and easier ways to obtain the noise that such a device can generate, as I mentioned in my last post. JEFF
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 02:42 PM |
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19th Post |
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a19971828 Member
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Ok , only , i found these images , here in peru , we can find the black coil , i was using a coil like the second pic . But the black coils are about 270uh , so , to get 500 uh i need to use two in serie . This is the same ? , i hope yes . Attached Image (viewed 3855 times):
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 02:43 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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Here is the second pic , i was using Attached Image (viewed 2455 times):
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 02:48 PM |
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21st Post |
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a19971828 Member
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One further question , When you say Ambient noise , you are refering to "White noise" , so the quesion is : "Ambiental noise"= "White noise" ?
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 03:16 PM |
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mikesndbs Moderator
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 Why don't you try the untuned radio idea and see how you get on? This already has all the parts and more that you need. AM mode, shortwave or medium wave, tune where you hear just static, its more pink or brown noise that you want. But if you really want to try and self build just follow the ideas Sparks has given you, its all good advice. Cheers Mike
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 03:27 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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Is the same results if i connect the two black choke coils in serie to get 500uh ? , here i cant find a black choke coil 500uh
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 03:28 PM |
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sparks Member
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Either choke will work, but the second will be more sensitive to RF pickup. If you use 500uH in total, it will make the unit very sensitive to medium wave pickup. Thats why I suggested 4.7mH instead, to make the resonant freq lower than medium wave band. Ambient noise picked up on the medium / long wave bands is not the same structure as pure white noise. Its has a continuously varying spectral composition from brown noise to white, with small to large impulse noise structure as well. JEFF
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 03:42 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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I am thinking something , the original idea of raudive diode is pickup white noise? , pickup electromagnetic white noise ? , because one thing is , electromagnetic white noise , and another different is white noise sound . There are programs , and it can produce white noise sound . If all the point is pickup white noise , the idea was answered , only is necessary to know this , when you say atmospheric noise , you refer a white noise? , atmospheric noise = white noise ? . Is this is true , a raudive diode is a white noise`s wideband receiver , not a white noise source , because raudive diode not produce white noise . There are other circuits can produce white noise . One thing is produce , another thing is receive .
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 03:58 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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Ohhhh , well , is perfect ! , spark , you are a very wise person about this items , i am very glad to find a person like you , i send all my congratulations , this is the answer i was waiting , so , the ambient noise is a mixture of brown noise and white noise , great . But , if you say , is recomended a 4.7mh , i understand it , because the self resonant formula is : F = 1/2*3.1416*L*C , when the L is the self inductance , and the C is the parasitic capacitance between turns of wire . If L is more High , the F is lower . But , i made calculations , and , the 0.5mh produce a F between 300-350 khz , and , this is out of medium wave band . Is it not correct , (0.5mh) , why raudive used 0.5 mh design ?
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 04:03 PM |
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27th Post |
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a19971828 Member
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So there is no problem if i connect two or more black chokes like in pic in serie to get the inductance i want get ?
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 04:14 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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Another question , when we tune a simple radio , am radio for example , in one white or clear station , we are receiving or tunning white noise , or atmospheric noise ? , is an interesting question .
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| Posted: Nov 9th, 2011 06:39 PM |
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29th Post |
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sparks Member
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I mentioned 4.7mH as this would resonate below medium wave and avoid clear pickup of medium wave stations. But, as I said this simple design will always be somewhat prone to broadband pickup. That is why I suggested the ferrite rod antennas, as 2 of these in series would be more selective at rejecting medium wave signals. Yes the raudive design uses a choke that would make it resonant at approx 800kHz, so in the middle of MW band. Yes, you can series connect the black chokes to get a higher inductance. A radio tuned to an unused medium wave channel will be receiving the varying mixture of brown, white and impulse noise spectra I mentioned. Thats why I suggested it as a better alternative to the raudive diode at receiving a suitable noise source. It gives the advantage that if tuned correctly, there will be no radio station voices breaking through - as is often the case with broadband devices such as the raudive diode. I dont see any real advantage in trying to build the raudive diode, when a radio on an unused channel can give you approx the same noise output. There is however some speculation that the crystal diode has properties that may promote the formation of evp voices, but I havent any evidence of this. There are some other members of this forum that are looking at this concept, and are better able to comment than me. perhaps they can offer some comments please? JEFF
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| Posted: Nov 10th, 2011 12:44 PM |
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31st Post |
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a19971828 Member
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OK , yes , this you say about the crystal diode properties , is true , because , in scole experiment , they received a comunication , and , it indicates make a device made of a piece of germanium , this element is the key , i dont know why , but , there are something whith the germanium , crystal diode`s material . I thing , is important the type of crystal diode , some of these , will cause a better results .
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| Posted: Nov 10th, 2011 12:52 PM |
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32nd Post |
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a19971828 Member
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So , after all this discussion , i can say important conclusions : - Important point to make a raudive diode is the coil , this must be a choke coil (coil whith a low q , and low parasitic capacitance between turns )to avoid radio stations whith a better way. - The original raudive`s diode idea , was , pickup a atmospheric noise , it is a mixture of brown noise , and white noise , and impulse noise .
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| Posted: Nov 10th, 2011 12:56 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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Now , one question , the atmospheric noise , have a cientific name ? , this noise mixture , is named whith a specific name by cientifics ? . For example , if i want read about this , how can i find the description and characteristics of this mixture noise ? . I think , is very important , because if we can produce , this noise , we can have the most important point and element .
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| Posted: Nov 10th, 2011 01:00 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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And , another question , How do you know the principal raudive`s idea was pickup atmospheric noise ? , Do you read it in some book ? , or you deduced it ? ,
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| Posted: Nov 14th, 2011 08:42 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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Ok , please , i am waiting answer for my last question .
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| Posted: Nov 17th, 2011 01:31 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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I repeat this question , the atmospheric noise , have a cientific name ? , this noise mixture , is named whith a specific name by cientifics ? . For example , if i want read about this (in wikipedia for example) , how can i find the description and details of this mixture noise ? . I think , is very important , because if we can produce , this noise , we can have the most important point of this .
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| Posted: Nov 25th, 2011 08:16 PM |
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clockdryve Member 
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a19971828, here is the ebay link to the Raudive Book (Used) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Break-Through-Knostantin-Raudive-1977-/250768306418?pt=Antiquarian_Collectible&hash=item3a62f4b0f2 There is also a Hardback version that will probably be put back up within a week or 2 two that someone is trying to get $79 plus shipping.... They are not cheap...and as you are probably aware -- they are quite Rare too.
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| Posted: Nov 25th, 2011 08:44 PM |
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clockdryve Member
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a19971828 wrote: I repeat this question , the atmospheric noise , have a cientific name ? , this noise mixture , is named whith a specific name by cientifics ? . For example , if i want read about this (in wikipedia for example) , how can i find the description and details of this mixture noise ? . I think , is very important , because if we can produce , this noise , we can have the most important point of this . Yes....it's called "cosmic microwave background radiation". It is the resulting wave from the "Big Bang" and is everywhere :-) Makes sense that we "came" from there...that we should some day "return"....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrE3mbZ-X8c Last edited on Nov 25th, 2011 09:02 PM by clockdryve |
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| Posted: Nov 26th, 2011 12:54 PM |
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ArizonaEvp Super Moderator 
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a19971828 wrote: I repeat this question , the atmospheric noise , have a cientific name ? , this noise mixture , is named whith a specific name by cientifics ? . For example , if i want read about this (in wikipedia for example) , how can i find the description and details of this mixture noise ? . I think , is very important , because if we can produce , this noise , we can have the most important point of this . Howdy, If you google Atmospheric Noise you will find this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_noise Down towards the bottom of the page is a sample audio file that you can listen to. Regards, Ron
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| Posted: Nov 28th, 2011 01:23 PM |
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a19971828 Member
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Awesome ! , all you are very wise persons , this forum is the best in area , if all of us could join , we could make the itc revolution , and make it a real bridge , whith solid science , perhaps some day , we could chat online and make a project .
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