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A little more on the validity of "orbs"  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Jul 23rd, 2007 11:11 AM
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fratka
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=469849&in_page_id=1879

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 Posted: Dec 16th, 2011 09:22 AM
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Paul
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Interesting pick of an energy orb I caught on an investigation, I caught It as It came down the wall over the chair and through a paneled floor.

Attached Image (viewed 209 times):

energy orb stanleys palace 1.jpg

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 Posted: May 11th, 2012 08:17 PM
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pol
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The above orb -with its particular configuration, is merely a reflection anomaly ie. light reflection off the metal camera. The same can be directly observed by placing camera in the sun & observing the metal of camera close-up / or can use magnifying glass .. you will see a mass of same configurations.

http://www.prairieghosts.com/trouble.html

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 Posted: May 15th, 2012 05:09 AM
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Paul
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Orbs in general are for the most open to alternative explanations other than paranormal, the one in this pic was taken when I had just sat in the chair and felt the energy of a lady sit by me. I agree orbs caught on a camera have a tendency to pick up spectrams of light which reflect back to the lens "same on glasses" however I do feel there is a connection between orbs and paranormal phenomena, rather than presume orbs are the start of a manifestation "which I would agree are not" I would suggest they are somehow linked to the energy as it passes, much like a particle  of dust would move when a person moves.

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 Posted: Dec 30th, 2012 03:12 PM
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Gizmo
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Paul wrote: Orbs in general are for the most open to alternative explanations other than paranormal, the one in this pic was taken when I had just sat in the chair and felt the energy of a lady sit by me. I agree orbs caught on a camera have a tendency to pick up spectrams of light which reflect back to the lens "same on glasses" however I do feel there is a connection between orbs and paranormal phenomena, rather than presume orbs are the start of a manifestation "which I would agree are not" I would suggest they are somehow linked to the energy as it passes, much like a particle  of dust would move when a person moves.

I think a lot of confusion occurs with the semantics.  The word, "orb" has been forever tainted by the confusion of folks who take pictures with cheap little digital cameras at night using flash, and discover a plethora of round, semi-transparent circles floating around.  If you want to believe, these are visible things you can tie to the experience of being in a haunted place.  Wow, we couldn't see them when we took the picture!!  (kinda thing.)  I like to be gentle, but these just need to be laid to rest as paranormal.  They are no more paranormal than the sparks you get while touching a metal doorknob while standing on a carpet....explainable, but kinda cool?

There is another category of phenomenon that gets the orb tag.  These are light anomalies.  They are visible to the naked eye.  They can move erratically through solid objects and past doorways through the air.  They glow with light seeming to come from them, not be reflected.  They are often felt as well as seen, especially when they smash into a person.  These are paranormal.  They can be caught on camera.  Most effective is on video.  Care must be taken to eliminate the possibility of them being flying insects, though. 

I think we need to designate them with different terminology.  Orbs are totally debunked, and need to be laid to rest once and for all if this field is ever going to be taken seriously.

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 Posted: Jan 8th, 2013 08:18 AM
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fratka
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I think its important to note that the issue of "orbs" has not been put to rest and that some cannot be explained away. I think people interested in the paranormal should not put too much stock in the ideas of others when they make definitive or absolute statements concerning the validity of certain anomalous activity.

Granted, I think many instances of false positives exist but I have also seen many instances, both from still shots and video that cannot be explained away. I have recorded "orbs" that show intelligent control with IR video and was lucky enough to capture them in a still shot. On the same investigation, I recorded another orb at the exact time it passed in front of my ELF detector (giving an audible signal). I use these still shots as a standard for judging my other captures, which might be false positives.

With that said, there are no fool-proof ways of determining whether an orb is real or not without secondary evidence to support it. Other factors to take into consideration are the atmospheric conditions at the time of the capture. Ambient temperature, humidity, light levels, and the presence of dust, insects, etc. should all play into your consideration when collecting evidence. Atmospheric conditions have a huge affect on electrical activity.

Accepting that "orbs" are not valid because of a perceived consensus in the paranormal community, requires a look at the investigators who form this consensus. Weigh the evidence and their opinion based on their methods (discipline) of collection and consider their level of expertise in natural science. Though we cannot begin to know what mechanisms drive the manifestation of paranormal activity, we can determine the effects it has on our local environment by comparing it to known (similar) phenomena.

Ask yourself questions and then look for answers. How can a ball of light, which gives off a measurable electromagnetic field (EMF) form in our atmosphere? How are EMFs formed to begin with? Is it possible to have a single-point charge or could it be a the result of an electric charge with two poles (dipole)?

Just those few questions alone will result in a Google search with many pages of results. My point is, don't take any one's word or a single explanation for recorded activity. Investigate for yourself and please do not take another researcher's word as being gospel just because they claim years of experience. Compare many reputable sources to form your hypothesis.

Best Regards,

Frank

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 Posted: Jan 8th, 2013 11:57 AM
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Gizmo
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fratka wrote: I think its important to note that the issue of "orbs" has not been put to rest and that some cannot be explained away. I think people interested in the paranormal should not put too much stock in the ideas of others when they make definitive or absolute statements concerning the validity of certain anomalous activity.

Granted, I think many instances of false positives exist but I have also seen many instances, both from still shots and video that cannot be explained away. I have recorded "orbs" that show intelligent control with IR video and was lucky enough to capture them in a still shot. On the same investigation, I recorded another orb at the exact time it passed in front of my ELF detector (giving an audible signal). I use these still shots as a standard for judging my other captures, which might be false positives.

With that said, there are no fool-proof ways of determining whether an orb is real or not without secondary evidence to support it. Other factors to take into consideration are the atmospheric conditions at the time of the capture. Ambient temperature, humidity, light levels, and the presence of dust, insects, etc. should all play into your consideration when collecting evidence. Atmospheric conditions have a huge affect on electrical activity.

Accepting that "orbs" are not valid because of a perceived consensus in the paranormal community, requires a look at the investigators who form this consensus. Weigh the evidence and their opinion based on their methods (discipline) of collection and consider their level of expertise in natural science. Though we cannot begin to know what mechanisms drive the manifestation of paranormal activity, we can determine the effects it has on our local environment by comparing it to known (similar) phenomena.

Ask yourself questions and then look for answers. How can a ball of light, which gives off a measurable electromagnetic field (EMF) form in our atmosphere? How are EMFs formed to begin with? Is it possible to have a single-point charge or could it be a the result of an electric charge with two poles (dipole)?

Just those few questions alone will result in a Google search with many pages of results. My point is, don't take any one's word or a single explanation for recorded activity. Investigate for yourself and please do not take another researcher's word as being gospel just because they claim years of experience. Compare many reputable sources to form your hypothesis.

Best Regards,

Frank


You make excellent points.

I will agree that there are anomalies out there that might be captured and look like dust orbs, but that are paranormal in origin.

Unfortunately, the term "orb" has been forever tainted by the plethora of shots of nothing more than dust or moisture.  It's appropriate to point out the over-use and ignorance associated with this term.  I think there needs to be a new one coined, myself, to cover the light anomalies that ARE apparently paranormal. 

I think an absolute statement is not too extreme if there is absolute scientific explanation for something.  However, just as it is not impossible for the apple sitting on my kitchen counter to be a little green alien, it is not impossible for one of the many orbs in a dust orb shot to be a light anomaly. 

It's just not likely. 

And shoddy techniques involving cheap little digital cameras using a flash in dark, dusty areas are helping to promote this massive myth.  It gets embarrassing, frankly.

I must clarify that I am a person who has a very strong belief in the paranormal.  I have witnessed things, experienced things, and known others who have.  I am not a doubter in the possibility of energy flying around.  I am, however, quite firm in my desire to stamp out the vast misunderstanding that is embedded in the paranormal community about what exactly causes backscatter (circles of confusion) in photos, and how to avoid it tainting evidence with techniques guaranteed to produce false positive readings.

I am not an expert in photography.  I did teach it for 20 some years, however, and that experience of making pictures both by hand in the darkroom, and in the digital platform has taught me to understand what a camera can and cannot do.  Can and cannot capture.  It is a tool that measures and records light in the visible spectrum (or IR spectrum, depending on the camera's designed and pre-programmed capabilities.)

It is not magic. 

(As an aside, my students all made cameras using crude methods.  Cardboard and electricians tape.  Pinhole for lens.  Photo paper for 'film.'  What was one of the first things a lot of them did? They faked ghost pictures.  Yep.  With a long exposure, it was cool to slip someobdy in the shot for part of it and get a transparent ghost image.  So, if a 16 year old can do this with crappy hand held, hand made cameras, how hard is it?)

I also understand quite a lot about how evidence can be faked or mistaken.

I'd love to see a great ghost picture.  I'm still looking.  I've seen a couple that had me pretty excited, but not often.  And they are not the ones you see all over the net that claim to be "real ghosts."  Sadly, most are pretty easily debunked.

You are looking at why things might happen.  I am doing the same from a debunking angle.  I find myself accepting those things that cannot be explained.  But if I see a major issue in either understanding or conclusions, I'm going to speak up to try to shine a light on the problems, so we don't just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over and add to the reasons that the field is discounted as pseudo-science or new age hocus pocus.

Last edited on Jan 8th, 2013 12:06 PM by Gizmo

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 Posted: Jan 8th, 2013 12:34 PM
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fratka
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I agree with all you said, though I gave up long ago in trying to debunk or disprove others "evidence." I would like paranormal enthusiasts to learn the proper way of collecting and supporting their evidence. I would like to see more people wade deeper into the pool of information and apply what we do know about our environment. Sometimes science can explain what we have just witnessed, which doesn't make it any less spectacular or less supernatural in origin.

Too many "investigators" accept their "evidence" as supported only because they have see hundreds of pictures from others without any data to back it up. Maybe its wishful thinking, being naive, ignorance, or just plain lying but accepting evidence just because you took a picture in a supposed haunted location and a spherical light anomaly shows up is wrong.

Maybe I am being naive for thinking people will do the work involved with real research, because it is work. I like to think of it as hopeful! :wink: I just posted on Sumption's Facebook page yesterday: "I have watched the "paranormal community" for the last 15 years make no progress in research or mentality. A community of perpetual beginners because the "old guys" get fed up and go into solitary research." I think this is what happens with most people on this forum. Though we all collaborate with posts and ideas, we are still researching from a solitary perspective. For the most part we are not part of teams or groups, mainly because we have found in the past a lack of dedication or seriousness.

Keep in mind, these comments are pointed at the paranormal investigation community and not those researching ITC. For the most part, those who I have come into contact with in ITC are internally driven and self-motivated. Even though I have not been heavily active in the community for a while, I have still carried on my own research and I suspect those I have collaborated with in the past have done the same.

I know, I'm a little off topic! Its been a while since I've posted and I had a few things to get off my chest. :blink::biggrin:

I'll stop now! LOL

Frank

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 Posted: Jan 8th, 2013 03:06 PM
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Gizmo
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fratka wrote: I agree with all you said, though I gave up long ago in trying to debunk or disprove others "evidence." I would like paranormal enthusiasts to learn the proper way of collecting and supporting their evidence. I would like to see more people wade deeper into the pool of information and apply what we do know about our environment. Sometimes science can explain what we have just witnessed, which doesn't make it any less spectacular or less supernatural in origin.

Too many "investigators" accept their "evidence" as supported only because they have see hundreds of pictures from others without any data to back it up. Maybe its wishful thinking, being naive, ignorance, or just plain lying but accepting evidence just because you took a picture in a supposed haunted location and a spherical light anomaly shows up is wrong.

Maybe I am being naive for thinking people will do the work involved with real research, because it is work. I like to think of it as hopeful! :wink: I just posted on Sumption's Facebook page yesterday: "I have watched the "paranormal community" for the last 15 years make no progress in research or mentality. A community of perpetual beginners because the "old guys" get fed up and go into solitary research." I think this is what happens with most people on this forum. Though we all collaborate with posts and ideas, we are still researching from a solitary perspective. For the most part we are not part of teams or groups, mainly because we have found in the past a lack of dedication or seriousness.

Keep in mind, these comments are pointed at the paranormal investigation community and not those researching ITC. For the most part, those who I have come into contact with in ITC are internally driven and self-motivated. Even though I have not been heavily active in the community for a while, I have still carried on my own research and I suspect those I have collaborated with in the past have done the same.

I know, I'm a little off topic! Its been a while since I've posted and I had a few things to get off my chest. :blink::biggrin:

I'll stop now! LOL

Frank
Well, it's really nice to read your thoughts, Frank.  Nice to meet you, too.

I'm an odd bird.  I am not an investigator.  I am not a researcher.  I am simply someone who is intrigued by the paranormal.  I really enjoy looking for patterns, and enjoy trying to make sense of the puzzle.

I have no scientific qualifications.

What I think we might agree upon is that a large portion of folks have as their hobby, "Paranormal Research."  They base their activities on what they have seen on television shows, or seen at the movies.  They don't have any real idea how to go about gathering "evidence," so they seem to do what they have seen television shows present as ways to go about things. 

It can be a fun hobby.  It's fun to go and be scared and try to capture evidence (that would not be considered evidence to anyone but themselves and their friends).  In all those hours and hours of effort, not much ever comes out of it -if they are lucky.   I think that they are taking stupid risks if they get embroiled in something unexpected by being vulnerable and in the wrong place. ( I am not referring to the people who do it right, and are meticulous in their methods.  I'm not referring, either, to the people who are driven to go looking for answers because they deal with the paranormal in their own lives. )

Actually, my interest is with the people who actually deal with it personally on a day to day basis.  I'm most interested in helping them come to terms with what is going on by trying to understand what is is that is messing with them.  I am also interested in figuring out different ways to STOP activity.  I've long ago stopped needing to "prove" it exists.  My focus is on identifying it, then on pushing it back.

But I do confess to having a short fuse for all the orb photos.  It's an annoying reminder of how amateur "ghost hunters" can discredit the whole field.

Last edited on Jan 8th, 2013 03:08 PM by Gizmo

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 Posted: Jan 8th, 2013 03:39 PM
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fratka
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Nice to meet you too, and letting me vent!

Never fear, no one is trained in this field! Whether formally educated or not, no one is an expert. We are just striving to understand the things we witness by experiencing (or trying) similar activity on a regular basis. The difference between us all is not the interest, but how we approach the investigation. You are dead on (mind the pun) with your take on the majority of the TV personalities and their followers. They do a good job in generating interest but a poor job in showing others how to do it.

Normally, I would say they don't harm anyone but sadly that is not the case. These groups of amateurs (ghost hunters and the like), with no training tend to make contact with people who require help. These "teams" are not equipped to handle these afflicted people who may need counselling due to mental anguish, illness, or just require attention. Also, if the home is truly experiencing a haunting, they are not equipped to handle that either. I have seen too many hunters jump, scream or run (sometimes all three) when something does go bump in the night. I have had to pull them aside an remind them that "This is what we are here for..." and to "swallow their fear!" Its okay to be scared but sometimes the difference between being professional and being a hack is not doing it in front of your client.:blush:

As for stopping the activity...not sure if its possible. Heard of a lot of people trying and some even claim to have done it, but I have never seen it actually happen. Clients always report a return of activity! From what I have seen the connection between the "spirit" and those who are haunted is a mental one. Not as in crazy (mental illness) but as in a compatibility issue. They are tuned into each other, which can take time to affect all in the household but usually starts with just one and then spreads. Breaking the mental connection would be your best bet (IMO).

When we conduct research or experiment with ITC, the connection we have with who or what we are communicating with is important. We tend to connect with those closest to our own "vibration" or resonance. I can imagine it would be the same for a typical haunting but this is pure speculation on my part.

Regards,

Frank

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 Posted: Jan 13th, 2013 03:53 PM
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Gizmo
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Rachel EVP Voices wrote: Hello all

I thought you may be interested to read Steve Parson's ideas on the subject of orbs: http://www.parascience.org.uk/articles/orbkill.htm

I had a long chat with him at an SPR conference and I have to say that his argument is pretty strong.

Best wishes, Rachel
Excellent link. Thank you, Rachel! 

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